I.W.C.A
From: neveradnothin
Sent: 03 May 2002 08:05
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A
anyone know how the I.W.C.A got on?????
cheers m
From: Nick Bryant
Sent: 03 May 2002 12:04
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
The IWCA stood in 4 areas, Oxford, Hackney, Harold Hill and Islington. The
overall votes were high.
In Haggerston ward in Hackney, we came a close second to Labour.
In Islington, we beat Labour and came behind the liberals and 1 independent.
In Harold Hill, we took 27% of the vote but only got 1 second place.
In Oxford, we won 1 seat and did well in the other two.
From: neveradnothin
Sent: 03 May 2002 12:12
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
was there any far right/left opposition in the wards?????
cheers m
From: james.carroll
Sent: 03 May 2002 12:18
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
Well, this news combined with the BNP results shows the correctness of the
strategy devoloped by Red Action and the IWCA over the past few years.
There again, a number of people on this list have been convinced of this
for some time but sadly I suspect that the message is not going to get
through to the those who call the shots.
JC
From: welch
Sent: 03 May 2002 12:28
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
Quoting neveradnothin:
>was there any far right/left opposition in the wards?????
According to a letter to the Weekly Worker the SA was opposing the IWCA
in the Blackbird Leys ward in Oxford. Perhaps Phil Walden could comment
on why the OSA did this?
From: Nick Bryant
Sent: 03 May 2002 12:44
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
In this ward, the IWCA got 197 votes and the Socialist Alliance candidate
got 33 votes. This was the only left opposition in the elections and there
was no far right opposition either.
From: Phil Walden
Sent: 30 April 2002 07:41
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
I don't live in the Blackbird Leys area of Oxford so it is a bit difficult
for me to comment. It is also difficult for me to comment because to my
knowledge neither the IWCA nor the SA have held any public meetings in
Oxford in the last ten months. (I used to receive emails from the Oxford SA
but for about the last eight months they appear to have removed me from
their mailing list).
Obviously the IWCA are well to the left of the SA, which in essence has
nothing to do with the working class but is about bossing it about. That
assessment is based on my national knowledge since I have not seen any IWCA
propaganda locally. In my ward the SA stood but I do not yet have any of
the results in Oxford. If the IWCA had stood in my ward I would possibly
have dragged myself along to the polling booth, although that would have
depended on what they said in their propaganda. Nothing I have ever seen
written by the IWCA represents a serious perspective for the British working
class, in terms of the process of debate and cultural revolution that needs
to take place within the working class. From my experience, they appear to
think it is "patronising" to want a high level of culture from the working
class.
Phil Walden
Movement for a Socialist Future
From: neveradnothin
Sent: 03 May 2002 18:47
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
In a message dated 03/05/02 15:59:45 GMT Daylight Timepwalden writes:
> Nothing I have ever seen
> written by the IWCA represents a serious perspective for the British working
> class, in terms of the process of debate and cultural revolution that needs
> to take place within the working class. From my experience, they appear to
> think it is "patronising" to want a high level of culture from the working
> class.
>
<<<<<<< this sort of local community politics at a very quick glance actually
gives proles like myself more say and chance to put forward our ideas into
reality; more than any other organisation across the left that seem to want
the working class to follow there written idea of how we should live.rather
than allowing the working class to decide how they want to develop there
communities.if you have a quick look into there ideas and manifesto its
really getting down to the basic grass roots grievences working class
communities have;like tackling crime,unsociable behaviour,local play areas
for children,decent affordable government housing etc etc.most working class
people dont want to hear and read umpteen pages on the A-Z of marx,lenin etc.
basically phil what do you think would be a serious
perspective then for the working class; isnt one where they can have a real
say in there communities a real perspective.
m >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sent: 03 May 2002 19:16
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
I thought the IWCA (Red Action) had abandoned
anti-fascism completely.
They always like to point out when other people are
absent from an activity. So, in the case of Oldham and
Burnley, "where were you?".
I suppose Oxford is a nicer place...
From: Phil Walden
Sent: 30 April 2002 11:25
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
Neveradnothin wrote:
>
> <<<<<<< this sort of local community politics at a very quick glance actually
> gives proles like myself more say and chance to put forward our ideas into
> reality; more than any other organisation across the left that seem to want
> the working class to follow there written idea of how we should live.rather
> than allowing the working class to decide how they want to develop there
> communities.if you have a quick look into there ideas and manifesto its
> really getting down to the basic grass roots grievences working class
> communities have;like tackling crime,unsociable behaviour,local play areas
> for children,decent affordable government housing etc etc.most working class
> people dont want to hear and read umpteen pages on the A-Z of marx,lenin etc.
>
> basically phil what do you think would be a serious
> perspective then for the working class; isnt one where they can
> have a real say in there communities a real perspective.
>
> m >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is actually patronising to try to limit the horizon of the working class
to their immediate surrounding communities, because ultimately the decisions
that determine the conditions in those communities are made outside the
boundaries of those communities. I am talking about decisions made by big
business (transnational corporations) and by politicians on a world stage
like Blair. What we mustn't have is a position where the working class are
supposed to beg for concessions from Labour, the management team for the
transnationals, which is what we've got at the moment. But in order to
surmount this current state of slave mentality, we will need a section of
the working class to see itself in a position of holding state power.
Before this can happen, much more clarity through written debate will have
to take place on questions like the relations between party and class,
whether there is a need for democratic centralism, how do we understand
alienated consciousness in contemporary society, etc. This is actually much
more practical than the IWCA approach which seems to be about being better
managers of the localities than Labour (not difficult). The point is that
culture, when gained, by the working class is something that cannot be taken
away from it, and which can constantly be turned against the capitalist
system. A while back in a meeting in London I was speaking and was
interrupted by a member of the IWCA who said I was being "patronising" by
speaking about the cultural and intellectual demands of proletarian
revolution. He shouted me down and then said "We in the IWCA don't read, we
act.". If his comment is accurate, then the only future the IWCA can offer
the working class is as slaves.
Phil Walden
Movement for a Socialist Future
From: james.carroll
Sent: 03 May 2002 19:45
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
As I understand it, the IWCA campaign was built in and around estates like Blacbird Leys, areas which have about as much in common with the "Inspector Morse" version of Oxford as areas of Burnley have with "Coronation Street". (OK I know CS is in Salford). The IWCA have built their advances on living and working in those communities as part of a long term strategy over a number of years, not parachuting people in. That has to be the perspective for activists now, quick fixes and media stunts dont cut it with the Working class anymore.
JC
From: hickmanrp
Sent: 03 May 2002 20:49
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
Lazar wrote:
> Oh I see. So the IWCA just doesn't have any members
> anywhere where the fascists are active.
>
> Still they seem to find enough time to have cosy
> debates with fascists on Red Action's *moderated*
> internet discussion page.
>
> Whatever happened to the militant anti-fascist RA of
> the 1980s?
>
>
This is a bit cheap L - instead of berating the IWCA for its lack of
coverage/members, why not praise it for its effectiveness?
As to the cosiness or otherwise of the debates on the RA pages; well
perhaps people should go and look at it for themselves rather than
take your word for it.
Finally, and I don't want to talk for the IWCA - or RA for that
matter - but isn't a confident self-assertive working class the best
sort of anti-facism?
Give em a chance L - Raymond Hickman
From: lazarzaidman
Sent: 03 May 2002 21:46
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
--- In UK_Left_Network@y..., "hickmanrp" <hickmanrp@y...> wrote:
> This is a bit cheap L - instead of berating the IWCA for its lack of
> coverage/members, why not praise it for its effectiveness?
I am not aware that the IWCA is effective when it comes to fascists.
RA used to be the great anti-fascist fighting force. What on earth
has happened to them?
> As to the cosiness or otherwise of the debates on the RA pages; well
> perhaps people should go and look at it for themselves rather than
> take your word for it.
Yes take a look. It's shameful.
> Finally, and I don't want to talk for the IWCA - or RA for that
> matter - but isn't a confident self-assertive working class the best
> sort of anti-facism?
Yes, if you are engaged in confronting fascism. Or do we just subsume
the whole thing to class struggle? We might as well do that with
sexism and racism as well then
> Give em a chance L - Raymond Hickman
And do you think they will give communists like you a chance?
Lazar
From: Steve Lewington
Sent: 03 May 2002 23:32
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
>From: "merkatron"
>What happened to the militant anti-fascism you ask - decommissioned
>in 1994 or thereabouts to pursue a political alternative which you
>have obviously heard of , because it's one of the few glimmers of
>light on an otherwise bad day for anyone who calls themselves anti-
>fascists.
Decommissioned? By who? Who the fuck do you think you are to decommission
anti-fascism?
Sorry mate but there were race riots across the North of England this summer
(if you chaps in the Islington Working Class Association didn't notice) and
the fascists have just won seats in a working class town. Those in Burnley,
Oldham and Bradford who have had to deal with the shit never considered
decommissioning anti-fascism and have had to struggle on without the help of
our friends in the smoke.
Or could it be that decommissioning really means you can't be arsed with
anti-fascism any more? Did it get a bit boring? Did you feel left out at not
having some great socialist alternative to build like the rest of the
Loondon left?
Congratulations on your Islington and Oxford results - a glimmer of hope I
am sure. Meanwhile in the North of England............
Steve Lewington
From: Phil Walden
Sent: 04 May 2002 04:26
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
Oh no "merkatron" you are not going to get away with that
patronise-the-working-class evasive bullshit. The working class has more
right to culture than any other class, it is constantly being told what to
do by groups who falsely claim to be acting on its behalf, and yet you have
the damn front to assert that the IWCA stands for the intellectual and
political independence of the working class. You are almost as arrogant as
the CPGB. But what have you got to be arrogant about? Are you bringing
ideas about the need for proletarian revolution to the working class, or are
you smoothing over the cracks within the working class to (inadvertently or
otherwise) bale out the bourgeoisie? The last time I encountered some of
your party-members in Cowley at a public meeting I spoke about proletarian
revolution and was ignorantly told by them that I was being patronising.
Nobody else in the meeting agreed with your members. But the point - which
will undoubtedly be missed by you thick bastards - is that the ONLY way to
put right the conditions of the working class estates in Oxford (and
elsewhere) is to build for and mount a proletarian insurrection. Do you
agree or disagree with that statement "merkatron"?
Phil Walden
Movement for a Socialist Future
>
> Phil, you ask "While we're about it, do you actually agree with the
> statement that the IWCA "doesn't read, it acts"?"
>
> If the implication behind that quote is that we act rather than sit
> around and spout rhetoric or theory then yes I'm happy to agree with
> it. Some of us can read as well, amazingly.
>
>
> --- In UK_Left_Network@y..., "Phil Walden" <phil@p...> wrote:
> > No, "merkatron", it had nothing to do with putting on music events, though I
> > do think I know what you are referring to (and nothing particularly
> > political was said on that occasion). The meeting I am referring to took
> > place in Conway Hall and was also attended by a member of the Communist
> > Action Group. While we're about it, do you actually agree with the
> > statement that the IWCA "doesn't read, it acts"?
> >
> > Phil Walden
> > Movement for a Socialist Future
From: merkatron
Sent: 08 May 2002 06:19
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] I.W.C.A election victory
No. And I suspect I'm unlikely to agree with anything that you say.
You remind me why I stopped bothering talking to most people who call
themselves "left" and instead got properly involved in practical
working class politics . Feel free to go on about proletarian
insurrection or whatever tickles your fancy but don't expect any
respect or credibility within working class communities. The IWCA
doesn't claim to be acting on anyone's behalf but is instead helping
to achieve working class rule in working class areas.
"Bringing ideas about the need for proletarian revolution to the
working class" I fucking ask you?! Most of the people we work with on
a day to day basis have got more sus in their little finger than you
have Phil for all your lefty rhetoric. Dream on...
From: davidosler
Sent: 03 May 2002 17:05
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] IWCA councillor
So who is the IWCA representative on Oxford council? What are
her or his credentials? Just asking for the info that is already in
the public domain, out of genuine interest.
Dave
From: Phil Walden
Sent: 30 April 2002 09:49
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] IWCA and SA results in Oxford
The full result in Northfield Brook ward where the top two were elected was:
Molly Florey (Lab) 406
Stuart Craft (IWCA) 354
Lee Cole (IWCA) 328
Jane Darke (Lab) 308
Bernard Gowers (Lib Dem) 70
Choudhary Zafar (Lib Dem) 59
Susan Tibbles (Green) 44
Patricia Dickson (Green) 38
I don't have the turnout figure for this ward, but there is no denying that
the vote for the IWCA was unexpectedly high and it is very pleasantly
surprising that they have defeated one of the Labour clones. The
authorities have changed all the boundaries and with it some of the names of
the wards so unfortunately I can't tell you anything about the "Northfield
Brook" ward. The IWCA campaign must have been very localised because I
never saw them in the centre of town and nor did I ever see any propaganda
from them.
Moving onto the SA results and holding my nostrils, I can report that the SA
stood in six wards and came bottom of the poll in all except Blackbird Leys
where John Lister polled 33 votes for the SA coming ahead of two Greens and
a Lib Dem but behind Daphne Kingston of the IWCA who polled 197 votes and
came third overall in the ward. So in this ward the IWCA polled almost
exactly six times the number of votes than the SA.
The SA's results are laughably abysmal. After a dry run in last year's
general election, and despite cherry-picking only six wards to stand in,
they still only polled about 2 per cent in the wards where they stood.
Under normal circumstances this would result in the disbandment of the SA,
but unfortunately it will keep staggering on because the bureaucrats and
apparatchiks in the SWP and in the other member groups need it in order to
continue lording it over the working class.
Phil Walden
Movement for a Socialist Future
From: merkatron
Sent: 03 May 2002 18:09
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] Re: IWCA and SA results in Oxford
Phil Walden - a cursory look at IWCA strategy as debated on here for
a long time should tell you why you didn't see the IWCA campaigning
outside the wards they were standing in. The whole focus is on
addressing local issues (often the same local issues that crop up in
most working class areas) from a radical working class perspective,
not dishing out leaflets in the centre of town to an uninterested
public.
The only sign of the SA where I live (East London) was a van driving
round with a loud speaker yesterday evening - no leaflets, no
canvassing and probably no votes!
The IWCA approach is clearly paying off and - elections aside - it
will carry on in the areas we're based. Now others have seen the gulf
between the IWCA and SA in terms of ambition and resonance with
working class voters, naybe a few more groups will emerge in other
areas? I won't hold my breath given most of the left's utter
hypocrisy and idiocy!
From: Beacon
Sent: 03 May 2002 18:22
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Re: IWCA and SA results in Oxford
While I agree with the analysis of the IWCA results against those of the SA,
it should be pointed out that the IWCA are pursuing a tried and tested
method of work - tried and tested by Militant / Militant Labour / The
Socialist Party. Of course this is excellent news, it's great that the penny
has dropped with at least one other group how to go about building. It
certainly does prove that the IWCA is outstripping the crumbling Socialist
Alliance as a potential vehicle for the creation of a new Workers Party.
Steve Bush,
Lambeth Socialist Party.
From: merkatron
Sent: 03 May 2002 18:34
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] Re: IWCA and SA results in Oxford
Fair point Steve but I don't get the impression that the IWCA wants
to build a "workers party". We're more about empowering the local
community to do things themselves. The results for your candidates
are pretty impressive compared to the SA's dismal showing (although
their results in Hackney were better - Hackney being a very strange
place as you probably know!). That seems to be down to candidates
being rooted in their own communities and having a practical agenda
rather than the usual lefty wishlist.
From: sleesyscot
Sent: 05 May 2002 16:18
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] IWCA Websites
Web sites for 3 IWCA areas.
Blackbird Leys IWCA, Oxford
http://www.bliwca.fsnet.co.uk/
Hackney IWCA
http://www.hackneyiwca.fsnet.co.uk/
Harold Hill, Havering, Essex
http://www.haroldiwca.atfreeweb.com/
It's interesting that SA supporters here have largely sought to
belittle the IWCA results and their political significance rather
than to look at what lessons there might be to learn from them and
even from the SP results where there were also some minor successes
in working class areas.
Cheers,
s.
From: Nick Bryant
Sent: 06 May 2002 17:15
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] IWCA BREAKTHROUGH
From the Red Action news page.
NEWS - MAY '02
IWCA BREAKTHROUGH
5th May '02
Despite being registered as a political party for less than six months the
Independent Working Class Association (IWCA) scored its first electoral
success in the local elections, when Stuart Craft was elected Councillor for
Northfield Brook in Oxford. Stuart who stood in nearby ward of Blackbird
Leys as an independent last year saw his vote climb more than fourfold from
9%. When the result was announced at the count, it was greeted with stony
silence by the previously jubilant New Labour socialists who had been
singing an inadvertently bastardized version of the Red Flag.
Overall, the IWCA took 42% of the vote, knocking the other Labour candidate
into fourth place.
In nearby Blackbird Leys the IWCA also secured second place beating the
Tories and Greens along the way. Bringing up the rear was the Socialist
Alliance with 2.1% of the vote.
In the Haggerston ward of Hackney in east London, the IWCA ran Labour close
with one candidate Carl Taylor, coming within 90 votes of taking a seat. In
Hackney, the IWCAs two candidates were joined by an independent on a joint
platform, taking over 30% of the overall vote.
In Clerkenwell ward in Islington the IWCA stood two candidates and
recommended the third vote went to an independent community activist. If
Islington is widely understood by the national media to represent
loft-dweller heaven, then Clerkenwell is its epitome.
For an organization with working class in its title to stand there, much
less come second, displacing New Labour as the official opposition in the
process will send shock waves through the establishment locally.
Particularly when the 26.6% of the vote was secured from approximately 60%
of the population, as a tactical decision had been taken not to mount any
campaign within the wealthy 40%. Among those in social housing, and on the
larger estates in particular, support for the IWCA is estimated to be more
than one in two of those voting. One woman told an IWCA supporter: I have
never voted for anyone in my life but I am voting for you.
Curiously, the worst result of the IWCA is also arguably the most
impressive. In Havering, the IWCA branch, though in existence for less than
18 months, put up an ambitious 6 candidates in two wards, Gooshays and
Heaton. In Gooshays they came a credible third behind the Labour and the
Tories with 23% in a 35.7% turnout. Next door in Heaton the IWCA took a
total of just under 28%. But that is not the whole story. Far more
impressive than the placing or the percentages, is that across the two wards
the IWCA secured a total of 5,334 working class votes. What this shows is
that the electoral appeal of the IWCA is not determined by a low turn out,
or the twist of card in an obscure by-election. The local Tory candidate
admitted as much. If you keep it up he said you will win it all in four
years time.
On more than one occasion last year we warned the left that 2002 would be a
watershed. So it has proved. We also stated that the BNP would win seats
and that the IWCA would do well. We predicted these results would define
the political landscape. While the national media has zeroed in on the BNP,
the potential of the IWCA as a natural rival has been absolutely ignored.
The Guardian in typical bumbling fashion listed Stuart Craft as an
independent. The Independent in turn, though ostensibly dealing with
independents managed to miss the Oxford result entirely. It can also be
expected that the IWCA showing will be rationalised and dismissed by the
conservative Left. It is richly ironic, particularly given the brouhaha in
the media, that the people least likely to be dismissive are the strategists
within the leadership of the BNP.
From: Mark Metcalf
Sent: 08 May 2002 10:51
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] IWCA
Congratulations to the IWCA on winning a seat in Oxford, and well done to
the Socialist Party in holding on to seats in Coventry and London. I met
with a number of IWCA members in Hackney on April 27th and was very
impressed with their enthusiasm. I was also on the Haggerson estate in
Hackney on the 28th and found great enthusiasm amongst some local electors
who were going to vote for it. It seemed their candidates, including it must
be admitted a life time Stalinist who i can assure you [because i've spoken
to him on numerous occasions abiout this] thinks Joe was a marvellous bloke,
were well known and prepared and willing to take up the issues of local
people. That's what local councillors do - housing, benefits, repairs,
crime...probably on most things they would take up very few on this list
would be opposed. And asking local people what they want councillors to take
up is not exactly revolutionary, but well done to the IWCA for doing so
anyway. 'The left' has had a nasty habit of assuming 'we' know best when
often we have been wrong - we have concentrated on issues 'we' feel are
important rather than the 'working class'.
I suppose the crunch comes when local people take up 'reactionary' demands -
for example, that old chestnut, putting refugees and asylum seekers into
areas where local people don't want them, [there are others however, in
Hendon in Sunderland in 2000 for example local people organised to get rid
of two lesbians who were open about the sexuality]. Will the IWCA bow to
'reactionary demands' or oppose them?
Mark Metcalf
From: Phil Walden
Sent: 04 May 2002 15:08
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [UK Left Network] IWCA
Reply to Mark Metcalf below (interspersed with his text),
>
> Congratulations to the IWCA on winning a seat in Oxford, and well done to
> the Socialist Party in holding on to seats in Coventry and London.
I can't agree with these congratulations, for reasons that will become
apparent below.
> I met with a number of IWCA members in Hackney on April 27th and was very
> impressed with their enthusiasm. I was also on the Haggerson estate in
> Hackney on the 28th and found great enthusiasm amongst some local electors
> who were going to vote for it. It seemed their candidates,
> including it must be admitted a life time Stalinist who i can assure you [because
> i've spoken to him on numerous occasions abiout this] thinks Joe was a
> marvellous bloke, were well known and prepared and willing to take up the issues of local
> people. That's what local councillors do - housing, benefits, repairs,
> crime...probably on most things they would take up very few on this list
> would be opposed. And asking local people what they want
> councillors to take up is not exactly revolutionary, but well done to the IWCA for doing so
> anyway.
This all assumes that it is a correct tactic to be standing in local
elections and getting councillors. No doubt these councillors will make a
difference to their local people's lives, a difference on the margins, but
that doesn't make the tactic of standing for the council correct. Another
way of building, for example, would be to set up a human emancipation
discussion circle, open to all. After all, until the working class actually
discusses what it wants life to be like, groups like the IWCA are bound to
be imposing their own views on an essentially passive working class. As I
said to "merkatron", the working class has more right to culture than any
other class.
>'The left' has had a nasty habit of assuming 'we' know best when
> often we have been wrong - we have concentrated on issues 'we' feel are
> important rather than the 'working class'.
That is true. Only too true. But, as a member of the left, unless I am to
be *completely* passive, (surely not correct), I end up exchanging my ideas
with working class people and reacting to what they say to me. Sometimes at
public meetings, sometimes in a one-to-one, sometimes in a discussion group,
etc. I must admit that sometimes individual acts of bravery are required in
the class struggle. But I would prefer working class people to identify
themselves as "critical" and "working class intellectual" rather than as
brave. This is because what the working class is up against is a whole
massive system, not just the crap that can be identified in one's
surroundings - and then there is the constant reality and possibility of
class treachery, you need some intellectual bearings to try to cope with all
this.
>
> I suppose the crunch comes when local people take up
> 'reactionary' demands -
> for example, that old chestnut, putting refugees and asylum seekers into
> areas where local people don't want them, [there are others however, in
> Hendon in Sunderland in 2000 for example local people organised to get rid
> of two lesbians who were open about the sexuality]. Will the IWCA bow to
> 'reactionary demands' or oppose them?
Good point. It raises the question: what is it that makes people true to
principles? Experience comes into it, no doubt. But I believe that there
is also a certain "imaginative" component based on what a person has read,
or discussed with other people. It has to be possible to stand for
something on the grounds that it is believed to be the right thing for the
world working class, even if there is a clamour from one's peers not to take
this stand.
Phil Walden
Movement for a Socialist Future
From: hlmch2
Sent: 08 May 2002 17:25
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] IWCA
Phil,
The point of standing in elections is two fold, firstly workers deserve to be
represented on local authorities, in a principled manner that can solve their
immediate problems. The dividends for socialists is this, if one carries out
ones duty well, the workers one represents will begin to trust the socialist
councillor and be more ready to listen to the ideas that he propagates.
Hopefully recruits will be made, who in turn will stand within their own
areas for responsible positions. whether as councillors, in tenants
association, trade unions, MPs, whatever.
Your proposal for some sort of discussion group is pointless in the context
you suggest, i.e. as an alternative to standing for election, as it would
almost certainly be made up of the 57 varieties of socialists. You may feel
more comfortable in that environment, that is understandable, but it is an
easy option. This is why many on the non labour left join protest groups like
this or that solidary committee, Palestine, CND, Cuba, etc.
Stop the War. Sadly such work although to a degree useful, recruits few
workers to the struggle, for the simple reason that most activists within the
aforementioned groups already belong to one of the socialist outfits.…
Some may criticise the IWCA for this or that socialist imperfection, not me.
They have worked hard in difficult areas and had some success, good on them I
say, If they carry on IM sure they will win more workers to socialism and
gain more elected councillors. Lets learn the lessons and have less carping
from the sidelines of the class struggle. To implement socialism one has to
gain state power. In England the road begins with standing for election to
public office. Even Lenin's Bolsheviks stood for election to parliaments,
etc.
Comradely
Mick Hall
From: Phil Walden
Sent: 04 May 2002 20:47
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [UK Left Network] IWCA
Short response to Mick Hall below (interspersed with his text):
>
>
> Phil,
>
> The point of standing in elections is two fold, firstly workers
> deserve to be
> represented on local authorities, in a principled manner that can
> solve their
> immediate problems.
It is the pressure from the working class as a whole that brings about the
solutions to problems. The councillor is secondary, and often the problem
would be solved without the councillor. Can you give me an example of a
problem that needed a councillor to solve it?
>The dividends for socialists is this, if one carries out
> ones duty well, the workers one represents will begin to trust the socialist
> councillor and be more ready to listen to the ideas that he propagates.
This assumes that the councillor is objectively socialist. But in the case
of councillors that is something that can never be properly tested, because
the "socialist" councillors live in a world of beggary and compromise
(inevitably, because they are in a small minority among the councillors), a
world that separates them from the people they hope to represent. Blackbird
Leys should declare UDI and set up people's councils. In fact, so should
everywhere. The UDI should apply only with respect to the bourgeoisie, not
to the working class.
> Hopefully recruits will be made, who in turn will stand within their own
> areas for responsible positions. whether as councillors, in tenants
> association, trade unions, MPs, whatever.
It seems like you want working class people to be good citizens. But Karl
Marx wanted them to be "citizens of the world". The difference is vast.
>
> Your proposal for some sort of discussion group is pointless in
> the context
> you suggest, i.e. as an alternative to standing for election, as it would
> almost certainly be made up of the 57 varieties of socialists.
In my experience of discussion groups that has not been the case. Why do
you think that? The SWP, for example, run a mile from discussion groups
because they hate politics and hate working class thinkers. The same goes
for the rest of the groups - though individuals can differ from their
group's philistine stance. Having said that, I have to hold up my hand and
say that I have not set up a human emancipation discussion group in Oxford.
In Oxford I have relied on snatched and one-to-one discussion, which is not
really serious of me.
> You may feel
> more comfortable in that environment,
Whether I would be comfortable in such an environment I doubt, but even if I
wanted to get into one (which I don't) I couldn't do it - when they see me
walking along the road the leftists cross the road to avoid me, and the
general designation for me among the left is "insane" or "mad" - or
"bastard" if they are in private.
> that is understandable, but it is an
> easy option. This is why many on the non labour left join protest
> groups like this or that solidary committee, Palestine, CND, Cuba, etc.
> Stop the War. Sadly such work although to a degree useful, recruits few
> workers to the struggle, for the simple reason that most
> activists within the
> aforementioned groups already belong to one of the socialist outfits.
Yes, the type of group you mention are usually fronts for one of the left
groups. But not always. And there are fronts and fronts. It is possible
for a left group to really open up and carry on a rich two-way dialogue with
other people who are interested in the same issue.
>
> Some may criticise the IWCA for this or that socialist
> imperfection, not me.
> They have worked hard in difficult areas and had some success,
> good on them I
> say, If they carry on IM sure they will win more workers to socialism and
> gain more elected councillors. Lets learn the lessons and have
> less carping
> from the sidelines of the class struggle.
How exactly do you learn the lessons if people aren't allowed to criticise?
I accept that the IWCA are working in difficult areas, but the IWCA should b
e ready to hear criticism, and should be ready to consider possible
weaknesses of their tactic of building through councillors in particular
areas. After all, the working class is constituted on a world basis, not
just in "Northfield Brook".
>To implement socialism one has to
> gain state power. In England the road begins with standing for election to
> public office. Even Lenin's Bolsheviks stood for election to parliaments,
> etc.
I take Bogdanov's view that Lenin's Bolsheviks were wrong to stand for the
Duma. To Bogdanov, it was a distraction from the task of developing culture
within the working class. Bogdanov had a philosophy of collective
experience according to which the working class had need of, and should
have, plenty of time for discussion and reflection, rather than have to make
swift and impulsive decisions. For me, Bogdanov is arguing for a collective
working class intellectual, as opposed to Lenin who imo relied more upon
emotion, instinctual behaviour, and a dislike of philosophically reflective
approaches which Lenin regarded as contemplative and passive. This is a big
debate, which has never been had, partly because it is or has been verboten
to criticise Lenin on the left.
Regards,
Phil Walden
Movement for a Socialist Future
From: merkatron
Sent: 09 May 2002 07:03
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] Re: IWCA
Mark it's an interesting point about bowing to "reactionary demands"
and one that came up right at the beginning of discussions about
setting up the IWCA back in 1994/5 I think. I suppose the first thing
is we should have faith in your own communities. During my time
active in East London I've come across very few openly racist
individuals who have argued that we should get rid of their
neighbours because they're black and cause all the trouble or
whatever, but instead a large majority who recognise that at the
heart of what's going wrong with their communities it's class and
unfair distribution of resources that's the main issues.
I think we've got to be confident that once class is on the agenda,
most people view other issues as a distraction and that's the way I
think it's worked so far. In that way, those who are obsessed with
racial "solutions" are shown up as the one trick ponies they are.
I've got to say though that in the case you put forward about
refugees, why should a working class area take them when it is least
prepared to do so?
From: Lazar Zaidman
Sent: 09 May 2002 09:16
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Re: IWCA
--- merkatron wrote:
---------------------------------
I've got to say though that in the case you put forward about
refugees, why should a working class area take them when it is least
prepared to do so?
Where else should refugees go, apart from into working-class communities? What would be more prepared for refugees than a working class community?
From: hlmch2
Sent: 09 May 2002 12:41
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Re: IWCA, @ immigration
The point merkatron makes below is one that you hear all the time within our
communities (WC), And it has to be dealt with some delicacy (unlike dealing
with anti social elements) first lets get it into perspective, most people
feel a little uncomfortable with strangers, the more so if they do not speak
their language thus it making it more difficult to communicate, etc.
However within a short period of time working class communities in the main
quickly accept incomers. After all the majority of people in the south of
England are immigrants of one type or another, if not from abroad then from
other parts of the UK or Ireland. In my own area just out side London on the
River Thames, very few people can trace their roots within the area more that
three generations. The Irish came to build the Docks in the early 1900s and
stayed, the Geodes came to build and work in the power stations and factories
in the 1950s People from the Indian sub continent came in the 1960s and so
on.
All of these people make up the communities within my area, as it should be.
When I see young guys walking the streets from the Balkans, I am sure that in
time they will marry local girls (their often handsome chaps, sorry is that
racist) or perhaps someone from the place they were born, but what I do know
is their kids will be as English as mine, all be it with a different cultural
background.
It is true that working class areas should not bear the burden (as far as use
of resources are concerned) of taking in new comers, but it is a said fact of
life that the English middle class is one of the most selfish and bigoted
classes any where in the world As with not paying their share of taxes,
wanting as of right to send their kids to the best schools, etc., they are
totally 'IM all right jack' to put it bluntly they are shameful, mean
spirited people, the new comers are better off with us.
However we must point out the above and demand the resources be directed into
our areas, so that new comers can be successful assimilated. Far more
emphasis needs to be placed on demanding more resources by those who work in
this area.
Comradely
Mick Hall
BURNLEY 3RD BNP COUNCILLOR
From: hickmanrp
Sent: 03 May 2002 11:30
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
Any comments form SA proponents on the election of a third BNP
councillor in Burnley by just four votes (817 in total); noting the
SA candidates 141 votes in the same ward?
Raymond Hickman
From: Steve Lewington
Sent: 03 May 2002 12:23
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley
>a new UK LEFT would be a better idea with a real effort
>to get more working class people in the various committees
>m
Who cares about the 'United Kingdom' or about left committees?
However much middle class tossers in London may be shocked by the BNP vote
in Burnley, most of them have done sweet jack shit about dealing with the
problems of the North and have never given a toss about the situation until
now.
And rest assured that as soon as the BNP election wins are out of the
headlines it will be back to normal unless Northerners start to stand up and
be counted.
Racism offers no way out - we need Northern Pride, Northern Unity and
Northern government and we will send the BNP back off where they came from.
Steve Lewington
From: hlmch2
Sent: 03 May 2002 12:50
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
Steve
What you seem to be implying is that the SA should not have stood in Burnley,
if so I think your wrong, as this was not for the Presidency of France but
for the Council of a small northern town.
If the dominate Left/Centre group the LP was prepared to make a deal with
left groups, all well and good. As it was not then the SA had every right to
stand, indeed not to do so would allow the BNP to censor left groups from
standing by merely standing candidates.
If the SA can now maintain a presence in Burnley it should be able to build
on its vote in the future, as I believe people will recognise that it took
the fight to the BNP. I will concede that you are closer on the ground than I
so I may well be over looking something.
All the Best Steve
Mick Hall
From: hickmanrp
Sent: 03 May 2002 12:55
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
Surely the SA would be well advised to build up its roots, its
activity and support in the area before contesting elections, because
losing elections - and losing badly to both Labour and the BNP -
doesn't make you look credible.
Raymond Hickman
From: nigel_irritable
Sent: 03 May 2002 13:13
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
Firstly, well done to the IWCA in Oxford in particular but also in
the other wards in which it began to build a base. Well done also to
the New Schools for New Cross Campaign which got a councillor elected
in Lewisham.
> Surely the SA would be well advised to build up its roots, its
> activity and support in the area before contesting elections, because
> losing elections - and losing badly to both Labour and the BNP -
> doesn't make you look credible.
For the most part that's pretty good advice. I'd add though that
there are some occasions when it can still be a good idea to stand
without a base as it can be a first step towards building one.
Concentrate on where you have a base. Outside of that I think it is
only a good idea to stand if you have a specific purpose in mind.
That purpose could be to start building a base through doing a lot of
work in the new ward. It could be just to identify where your
supporters are, it could even be a recruitment exercise, but you have
to know why you are standing somewhere.
I realise, though, that giving advice to the SWP is a waste of time.
Everybody else on the left may have more experience of fighting (and
even winning) elections but the Central Committee still knows best.
Is mise le meas,
Brian Cahill
From: neveradnothin
Sent: 03 May 2002 13:27
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
In a message dated 03/05/02 12:56:23 GMT Daylight Time, hlmch2@ writes:
> If the SA can now maintain a presence in Burnley it should be able to build
> on its vote in the future, as I believe people will recognise that it took
> the fight to the BNP. I will concede that you are closer on the ground than
> I so I may well be over looking something.
>
> All the Best Steve
>
> Mick Hall
>
<<<<<< don't you think its too late????!!!!!;the BNP will be using every
trick in the book in obvious ways to keep relating to its new target audience
now[something the left hasn't].it will work out of its skin to get projects
sorted locally to show it will actually get things done;yes we know its a
farce but years and years of promises from the big three and no action will
make any local small BNP community promise carried out progress.
it will be too late for the SA now in
Burnley; do you think the BNP might even go a step cleverer by actually
acting as mediators in strife torn divided communities.this would be the
worst blow for democracy and the left;that would be a real worry.with the ANL
portrayed in BNP held councils as troublemakers;the failure of mainstream
government to solve the problems of divided communities.
and oh!!!!!!; the BNP newly elected in local government come along and
don't do the expected and rouse tensions but try to solve them in twisted but
clever ways.
its not as far away from the truth as it seems; Griffin this
morning on TV said[yes i know you shouldnt take what people say as gospel]
that people from ethnic backgrounds would work with the BNP regarding local
business'.but if the BNP behaved itself in a manner of speaking and did the
unexpected would this call in there favour of the need for seperate lines
between communities working.
m >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: Steve Lewington
Sent: 03 May 2002 13:35
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
I am not sure why the SA stood in that ward and I am sure they will be very
embarassed at the outcome of the vote. And so they should. It is a massive
propaganda coup for the BNP who can now dismiss the far-left by pointing to
that result. It was an appalling error.
This election was always about much more than the 'Council of a small
northern town' (that is why the media packed the count) it was a test case
for what happens when race is the main election issue and the BNP pile their
resources into a town.
Sadly, much as I would love the people of Burnley to be turning to a radical
socialist alternative it was never ever going to happen. The Socialist
Alliance have no answers to the problems of the North - they never even
refer to the North and have no Northern perspective. Leftist cliches count
for little in these sort of communities.
Anti-fascists must now work to remove race from the centre of the political
agenda - not by ignoring the issue but by dealing with it full on. And that
means being totally frank and honest with the Asian community about their
responsibilities as well by the way.
Everyone talks about how political alienation has led people to turn to the
far right and while I think this ignores the very real fact that a BNP vote
is a racist vote, we do need to deal with this alienation.
The solution is clear - the Northern people must be empowered and the only
way we can do that is by claiming our rights and by achieving our own
democratic structures.
Steve Lewington
From: Dave Parks
Sent: 03 May 2002 15:15
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
Steve wrote:
> I am not sure why the SA stood in that ward and I am sure they will be very
> embarassed at the outcome of the vote. And so they should. It is a massive
> propaganda coup for the BNP who can now dismiss the far-left by pointing to
> that result. It was an appalling error.
You are completely wrong Steve. The Left needs to be putting socialist
arguments across to fight fascism. Instead you say that the Left should put
no candidates forward and thus no arguments. The BNP can only be beaten by
class politics and that means it is essntial that we put forward candidates
and argue those class politics. The alternative is to tell working class
voters to support the New Labour when it is complete disillisuion with New
Labour that is allowing the BNP to get such high suppport in the first
place.
The way to beat the BNP in these places is for the SA (or whatever Left
groups who stood candidates) to continue their campaigning in those areas.
The danger is that they will pack up shop to be replaced by the ANL - that
would be a complete disaster.
cheers
Dave Parks
From: Steve Lewington
Sent: 03 May 2002 15:41
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
Dave,
The ANL and the SA are basically the same people in Burnley - the SWP and
not much else to be honest. So the idea of the ANL replacing the SA is a bit
daft.
I am not going to criticise the ANL or the SA people in Burnley - at least
they had the balls to stand up to the BNP.
But we beat the BNP bastards not by tired old left slogans but by replacing
racist white pride with progressive Northern pride.
If you listen to people who voted BNP apart from the obvious racism (they
don't vote BNP for their tax or health policies do they?) there is a
repeated mantra that the BNP 'stand up for us'.
But who is 'us'? Sadly it has come to mean white British. If people are
reminded that they are Northerners and should stand up for themselves as
Northerners half the battle will be won.
London is responsible for the state of the North. Time to wave goodbye to
their system and all those, left and right, who defend it.
Steve Lewington
From: Dave Parks
Sent: 03 May 2002 16:04
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
Steve wrote:
> The ANL and the SA are basically the same people in Burnley - the SWP and
> not much else to be honest. So the idea of the ANL replacing the SA is a bit
> daft.
Not true. I met one of the main activists from Burnley SA at the Indie SA
conference in January. There maybe SWP members in Burnley SA but to say that
Burnley SA is just the SWP is just plain untrue. The SWP could well respond
to the crisis by putting all of its time into the ANL instead of building a
socialist alternative with the SA - this will be so counter-productive.
> I am not going to criticise the ANL or the SA people in Burnley - at least
> they had the balls to stand up to the BNP.
But you were critiscisng the SA for standing.
> But we beat the BNP bastards not by tired old left slogans but by replacing
> racist white pride with progressive Northern pride.
Replace one set of reactionary nationalism with another? What is so awful
about socialists arguing class politics?
cheers
Dave Parks
From: eddiet1962
Sent: 03 May 2002 16:21
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
--- In UK_Left_Network@y..., "Dave Parks" <davep@e...> wrote:
SNIP
> Replace one set of reactionary nationalism with another? What is so awful
> about socialists arguing class politics?
>
> cheers
>
> Dave Parks
Come off it Dave, Steve Lewington's politics can hardly be equated
with those of the BNP.
Mind you there are a number of people on this list who used to do the
same thing to the Scottish Socialist Party.
Eddie
From: Steve Lewington
Sent: 03 May 2002 16:25
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
>Replace one set of reactionary nationalism with another?
No. Replace reactionary racist nationalism with progressive,regional pride.
Makes even more sense now than ever. And that is what is going to happen.
What is so awful
>about socialists arguing class politics?
Repeating tired old mantras to a deeply cynical electorate is a recipe for
finishing with less votes than Nazis.
Steve Lewington
From: nigel_irritable
Sent: 03 May 2002 16:34
To: UK_Left_Network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [UK Left Network] Burnley 3rd BNP councillor
--- In UK_Left_Network@y..., "Steve Lewington" <lewingtonsteve@h...>
wrote:
> Dave,
>
> The ANL and the SA are basically the same people in Burnley - the SWP and
> not much else to be honest. So the idea of the ANL replacing the SA is a bit
> daft.
I suspect that Dave knew that, Steve. He was just maintaining a
polite fiction. The serious point is that if they take their SA hat
off and replace it with an ANL one they could make a mess worse.
Is mise le meas,
Brian Cahill
